Once a great Muslim scholar by the name of Mullah Badaruddin Sahib came to debate with the vaisnavas of Godruma followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. These vaisnava sadhus chose Goracanda dasa Pandita Babaji of Sri Mayapur to speak to Mullah and the following is part of this brilliant debate between both parties:

Mullah: We have heard that your first preacher, Chatanyadeva took all the faults out of the Hindu religion. Srill He was in favor of this 'byut' (imaginary form) worship, or worship of a material thing. We want to know form the Vaisnavas is: Why, after consulting the scriptures, have you not rejected this 'byut' worship?

Human beings are situated on different levels of knowledge and purity. A person situated in pure spiritual knowledge is able to worship the pure spiritual form of the Lord. Persons situated on lower levels of spiritual awareness understand the Lord to a lesser degree, and they who are on the lowest level cannot understand the Lord's spiritual nature at all. When he meditates on God, a person on the lowest level inevitably imagines that God has a material form with material qualities. To think that the Deity form of the Lord is a statue made of clay is the same as to meditate in the mind on a Supreme that one imagines to have a form made of matter.

Actually, for persons on that level of advancement, worship of the Deity form of the Lord is very beneficial. In fact, if there were no Deity worship, the people in general would be in an inauspicious condition. If an ordinary person eager to see God were not able to see the Deity form of the Lord, then he would lose hope that he would ever see the Lord. The followers of religions that forbid Deity worship are on a low level of spiritual advancement. They are materialistic and not interested in worshiping the Lord. Therefore Deity worship is the foundation of religion.

Pure and wise saints gaze on the form of the Supreme Lord. Their hearts purified by devotion, they know that the Deity form of the Lord is pure spirit. As the heart becomes more and more purified by devotion, the worshiper gradually comes to understand that the Deity form of the Lord is a spiritual form reflected within the realm of the material world. Thus the Deity form is the spiritual form of the Lord, a form that the great saints have arranged to be reflected within the material world. An advanced devotees can directly perceive that the Deity form is perfectly spiritual. An intermediate devotee thinks the Deity form is a mental image.

At first a neophyte devotee thinks the Deity is a statue made of material elements, but as he gradually become pure in heart, he also gradually comes to understand that the Deity is actually made of spirit. Therefore the Deity form of the Lord should be worshiped by all classes of devotees. To worship an imaginary form is forbidden. However, to worship the real eternal form of the Lord is very auspicious. Therefor the worship of the Deity of the Lord is established for all three classes of Vaishnavas. There is nothing wrong in it. On the contrary, it brings the greatest auspiciousness.

In Shrimad-Bhagavatam (11.14.26) the Supreme Lord Himself declares:

yatha yathatma parimrijyate 'sau

     mat-punya-gatha-shravanabhidhanaih

tatha tatha pashyati vastu sukshmam

     cakshur yathaivanjana-samprayuktam

     "When a person purifies his heart by hearing and singing pure songs describing Me, he gradually becomes able to see spirit. He becomes like a person whose eyesight is restored by medicinal ointment."

     In the material world the mind tends to be filled with material thoughts. In that condition the soul is not able to understand his true spiritual identity and he is also not able to serve the Supreme Lord, who resides in his heart as the Supersoul. By hearing and chanting the Lord's glories and by performing other kinds of devotional service, the soul gradually becomes powerful. Then the bonds of matter that hold him become slackened. As the bondage of matter becomes slackened, the soul becomes stronger, and in the course of time the soul becomes exalted. He can directly see spirit, and he can act on the spiritual platform.

Some say that one should far away all that has no relation to the Lord and one should act only to attain Him. However, one cannot become spiritual strong merely by dry knowledge. How can a conditioned soul get the power to suddenly renounce all that has no direct relation to the Lord? Can a prisoner in jail release himself simply by wishing to be free? the soul imprisoned in the material world has committed an offense to the Supreme Lord. He must find a way to lessen that offense. The spirit soul is by nature an eternal servant of Lord Krishna. The root of the soul's offense is that he has forgotten that. Therefore, somehow or other he should turn his mind to think of the Lord. By gazing at the Deity form of the Lord, hearing the description of the Lord's pastimes, and other devotional activities, the soul gradually revives his original spiritual nature.

The more the soul's original nature is revived, the more the soul can see spirit directly. Serving the Deity of the Lord, and hearing and chanting the Lord's glories are the only way for the neophyte devotee to make spiritual advancement. For this reason the great saints have established Deity worship in this world.

     Mullah: Is it not better to meditate on an imaginary within the mind than to make an imaginary Deity form out of the material elements?

     Goracanda: They are the same. When the mind is material, it thinks only of material things. You may say, Brahman, the Supreme, is all-pervading". Still, the material mind will think Brahman is like the material element ether, which is also all-pervading. However, if I continue to meditate on Brahman in that way, in the course of time the real truth about Brahman will be manifested in my heart. Time and space are material. If the mind's meditation is not beyond time and space, then how can the mind meditate on something that is beyond the material world.

Rejecting the Deity form as something made of earth, water, or other material elements, you meditate on an imaginary form of the Lord, a form made of time and space. That is worship of a material form of the Lord, a graven image of the Lord. A material so-called form of the Lord is not needed. The Lord is not material. His is spiritual. That is His nature. Therefore a process is given to the conditioned souls by which they can approach the spiritual Supreme Lord. By chanting the Lord's holy names, by narrating His pastimes, and by worshiping His Deity form, one gradually becomes more and more devoted to the Lord. When the worshiper attains pure devotion, he can see the spiritual form of the Supreme Lord. Philosophical speculation and fruitive work will not help one to see the Lord.

     Mullah: the Supreme Lord is different from matter. It is said that Satan introduced the worship of material things in order to trap the souls in the material world. Therefore I think it is not good to worship material things.

     Goracanda: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is one without a rival. No one can possible compete with Him. Everything in this material world was created by Him and is dependent on Him. The Supreme Lord may be worshiped in many different ways. He is pleased by all these different kinds of worship. It is not that He will become an enemy if someone worships Him a particular way. He is all-auspicious.

If you say that Satan does something, then I say that Satan does not have the power to do anything against the Supreme Lord's will. If Satan exists, then he must be an individual soul dependent on the Supreme Lord. However, I think that this Satan does not exist. Why not? Because in this material world nothing can ever be done to thwart the Supreme Lord's will. There is not a single individual soul who is not dependent on the Supreme Lord. You may ask, `What is the origin of sin?' I reply: The individual soul is by nature a servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Awareness of this fact is knowledge. To forget this fact is ignorance.

If an individual spirit soul forgets this fact, then he sows the seed of sins in the field of his heart. A person who always remains a liberated associate of the Lord does not plant the seed of sin in his heart. Instead of imagining this mythological Satan, one should honestly see the ignorance in his own heart. Therefore, even if one worships the Supreme Lord as present in the material elements, he commits no offense. Therefore Deity worship is necessary for the neophyte devotee and the source of great auspiciousness for the advanced devotee. Therefore the idea that Deity worship is not good is only a theory of some thinkers. It is not at all supported by the pure scriptures.

     Mullah: Deity worship is not good for attaining love of God. It simply fills the mind with many material ideas.

     Goracanda: By studying the ancient history books we can see that your conclusion is wrong. many neophyte devotees begin their spiritual life by worshiping the Deity form of the Lord. As they continue the Deity worship in the association of the devotees, they gradually become advanced, and then they can directly see that the Deity is the spiritual form of the Supreme Lord Himself. Then they become plunged in a great ocean of spiritual love for the Lord. This is the undeniable truth: Association with the devotees of the Lord is the root of all that is good. By associating with spiritually advanced devotees of the Lord, one gradually attains spiritual love for the Lord. When one attains spiritual love for the Lord, the idea that the Deity form is material perishes. As one gradually becomes advanced, he attains great good fortune. Non-Aryan religions are generally opposed to deity worship. But look! How many followers of those religions have attained spiritual love for the Lord? They simply spend their time arguing with each other and hating each other. How can they understand loving devotion to the Lord?

     Mullah: If one has love for the Lord, then there is no fault in His worshiping the Deity. However, how can the worship of a dog, a cat, a snake, a debauchee, or some other kind of being be worship of the Supreme Lord? The honorable prophet has specifically forbidden worship of "byut".

     Goracanda: The people in general are grateful to God. Whether they sin or not, they have faith in the supremacy of God, and they bow down before the wonders that are displayed in this world. Prompted by their gratitude to God, the ignorant aborigines bow down before the sun, the river, the mountain, or anything that is very big and grand. They offer themselves to these things and they reveal their hearts to them. Although there is certainly a great difference between spiritual love for the Lord and the worship of material things, the bewildered people who show their gratitude to God by bowing down before these material things gradually attain a good result.

Therefore if you see with the eye of reason, you will not blame them for worshiping material things. If one meditates on a formless all-pervading God, or if without any spiritual love one offers namaz prayers or other prayers, then how is that different from worshiping a cat? It is our idea that one should do whatever is necessary to arouse one's love for God. If those neophytes are mocked or attacked, then the path of gradual spiritual advancement will be blocked. Dogmatic people refuse to honor the followers of other religions. They mock and attack others who do not worship in the same way they do. They make a great mistake.

     Mullah: Should it then be said that everything is God, and the worship of anything is the worship of God? Is the worship of sins worship of God? Is the worship of sinful desires worship of God? Is God pleased by any kind of worship?

     Goracanda: We do not say that everything is God. Rather, God is different from all else. Everything is created by God and dependent on Him. Everything has a relationship with God. By following the thread of that relationship, any thing may lead one to become curious about God. Therefore the sutra says:

     "Curiosity pushes one to taste things."

     Therefore this kind of curiosity gradually pushes one to try to experience what is spirit. You are all great panditas. If you are merciful and generous, you will understand what is the truth of this. We are only poor Vaishnavas. We do not like to enter into debates. If you give permission, we will now hear the musical play Shri Chaitanya-mangala.

     No one could understand what conclusion the mullah came to by hearing these arguments. After a short silence he said, "I am glad to hear your arguments. I will come on another day and ask about something else. Now it is late. We wish to return to our homes. After speaking these words, the mullah sahib and his followers mounted their horses and left for Satasaika Paragana. The babajis happily called out the holy names of Lord Hari, and entered the temple to hear the play Shri Chaitanya-mangala.