Brahmananda: Usually it's between the priests and the nuns.

Prabhupada: Unless one is actually spiritually situated, this material center of happiness, maithunadi, that will go anywhere. You give any color, spiritual or religious or political. You see? Why Gandhi's asrama failed? Do you know that? This is... When Gandhi was in jail, when he came back he saw all pregnant. You did not know that?

Kartikeya: No, we imagined, but we don't have information.

Prabhupada: That what... Gandhi said, "What is this asrama?"

Indian man (1): No, but Gandhi... He is well known, very well known.

Prabhupada: He is well known.

Indian man (1): Including mother Desai and all, there were lot of complaints and countercomplaints.

Prabhupada: Yes. It cannot be. You cannot stop the sex unless you are fully in Krsna consciousness. It is not possible. And that is the material bondage. In the material prisonhouse they have got so many means-big, big walls, handcuff, chain -- but nature is so perfect that simply give you a beautiful woman, and you are all prisoner. Big wall, handcuff and chain -- everything is complete. I think I have discussed in my recent purports.

Harikesa: Oh, yes, yes.

Indian man (2): Even in case of mother Desai, it was a classic incident, that his wife came one day to Gandhiji, that "This man is your personal writer but he is going on with another woman in your camp."

Prabhupada: There are so many.

Indian man (2): "And he comes only because of that woman. Otherwise he is not willing to be your personal writer. So I have complained." Then Gandhiji said, "All right, when did you know it?" So she said, "I was thinking for the three months, but fifteen days before I came." "All right, Mahadeva, you come here. You will fast for fifteen days." And one week later (indistinct) Mahadeva Desai was that he wanted food very badly. So after seven days he was about to die. Then that woman, wife, came again, "Maharaja I made a mistake. I made a complaint. All right. But now this man will die and where I will go?" (indistinct) "Then why have you made a complaint? So you can take off for seven days but you fast for seven days." So he is relieved.

Prabhupada: One -- there are so many cases. This Lilavati Munshi, this is the same thing. You know that? There is a big history behind this.

Kartikeya: The failures are due to some basic reason. All the big people have failed, and they have not been able to deliver the country or anything because their moral character...

Prabhupada: No, no, even they have delivered the country, these physical elements you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid unless you are on the transcendental platform, Krsna consciousness. So long you are on the physical platform, you cannot avoid. It is impossible. (Hindi) Gandhiji... (Hindi)... mistake. (Hindi) "And physical? Oh, you have done this? Fifteen days fasting."

Indian man (1): What is alternative? What do you do when...

Prabhupada: No, no, alternative, that alternative will not correct. That is the defect of Gandhi's movement. He is supposed to be reading Bhagavad-gita, but he has never said, recommended, Krsna worship. That is the defect of his education. Rather, he denied the existence of Krsna. "I don't believe if any person as Krsna ever lived." This is his concept. Gandhi has written in his life that while his father was dying he was enjoying sex with his wife. You know that?

Indian man (2): Gandhiji?

Prabhupada: Yes, he has written it.

Indian man (1): It is, after all, only...

Prabhupada: No, no. After, he became a great sage. That is all right. But in the beginning everyone is subjected. Which way we shall...

Kartikeya: We can go straight.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Brahmananda, you just take an idea. We shall construct Gurukula in this pattern.

Brahmananda: This building here, double story.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Double or three-storied.

Kartikeya: Most simple type.

Prabhupada: Very simple type, very nice. Just get a sketch with your work. This will be done like that.

Brahmananda: I'll ask Bhargava. He has his camera. He can take photographs.

Prabhupada: Yes. And downstairs, all shops. Only the roadside. Other side...

Brahmananda: Oh, no. That's the courtyard, and then other side, a building. [break]

Bhavananda: ...at the Gurukula best thing is outdoors classes. As soon as they're in rooms it gets too hot.

Prabhupada: As far as possible, outdoors.

Bhavananda: Best place in Mayapur is on the verandas of the big building. It's perfect.

Prabhupada: That is very nice.

Brahmananda: They have verandas on this building?

Prabhupada: Yes, there is veranda that side.

Brahmananda: On the inside or the outside?

Prabhupada: No. No. Inside. Outside closed. [break] ...no that reinforced concrete, all brick. This is all brick. (Hindi) You have got that brick manufacturing concern near?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Take as many bricks as you like. And we have got one address. You have taken, Agra, they will supply this lime. [break] (Hindi) ...rich men. Still, they are adulterating cement. (Hindi) [break] I heard it from very reliable source, my teacher. He was second teacher in my school, graduate, very good gentleman. He said that Edward VIII, er, VII, he was stealing jewels. You see?

Indian man (3): A very bad habit.

Prabhupada: Emperor of British Empire, and he was a thief. Just see.

Brahmananda: You've said that a fly sitting on a throne is still a fly.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...one gentleman, young man, he was very rich man's son. He would come in the evening in the Howrah station nicely dressed and would approach any gentleman, "Sir, I am very sorry. I have lost my purse. Can you give me? Otherwise I cannot return." So he will collect five, ten rupees and go to a restaurant and eat and go home. [break] It is the second nature. Now the door is open? We can go?

Kartikeya: Yes. [break]

Prabhupada: ...enter. Not the cows.

Indian man (4): Physical world, this earth is there. Are there any other earthly planets of this type where human beings or other beings are staying other than spiritual beings?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Indian man (4): Why the information is not given about that?

Prabhupada: Why not? In Bhagavata there is all information.

Indian man (4): About the other earthly planets also?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. All, every each and every planet, Janaloka, Tapoloka, Maharloka, what kind of men are living there, what they are doing -- everything is there. Svargaloka.

Indian man (4): But do they not come here sometimes to visit us or we cannot go there?

Prabhupada: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah [SB 7.5.31]. Isa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect. He is not at all free, completely under the clutches of material laws, and he is thinking that he is free. That is the defect. And when this sense comes, that "I am not free; everything is forced upon me," then he becomes human being. Otherwise he's a dog. Just like, you see, if a dog thinks he is free. He is jumping here, there. He is thinking, "I am independent," barking, attacking somebody. Oh, he is thinking he is free to do everything. When one comes to this sense, that he is not free, that is beginning of human life. Athato brahma jijnasa. Then the question will be that "Why I am not free? What is the reason?" Then that is... Real human life begins. Otherwise he's a dog. Is it correct or not? What do you think? If one is not free and wrongly thinks that he is free, then what is that mentality? A doggish mentality. And if I say, "Yes, you are free. You can think in any way you like. That is correct," then you become more encouraged to become, to remain a fool, to continue. That's all. So we shall go now? That is the defective part of modern civilization. Everyone is thinking, "I am free." Is it not? Everyone.

Indian man (5): Yes. "I am perfect. I am like this."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (5): He thinks who is living under the delusion.

Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, Sixteenth Chapter. "I am..." Adhyo 'smi dhanavan asmi ko'sti mama samah: "Who is there like me, intelligent? I will do this. I will do that." These are all...

Indian man (5): Continues delusion.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore Krsna has imposed death, that "You may make your plan as free man, but you'll not be allowed to stay. I'll kick you out." These poor men, they did not think of it, that "I am making so nice plan, but at any moment I'll be kicked out. So where is my freedom?" Dull brain does not think of it. A prisoner, if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? A prisoner, in prison, and if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? So that they do not think. Therefore Krsna has grouped them: mudha, these rascals, mudha. They conduct freedom movement. Just like in our country also, before this British Empire or this Mohammedan Empire there was no knowledge about this freedom. Indian people never thought of freedom. They know that "We are not free. Where is the question of freedom?" These things have come from the foreign countries, freedom movement. What is freedom? Where are you free? You are completely under the laws of nature. Where is your freedom? So they were thinking of greater freedom, to get out of the clutches of the laws of nature. That is real freedom. What is this freedom? From frying pan to the fire? (chuckles) Now we have freedom means from frying pan to the fire. Formerly there was one viceroy. Now in each state three dozen viceroys, and you have to maintain that. So many legislators, so many secretaries, so many ministers. All, they are sucking our poor blood. That's all. Hare Krsna. And as soon as you approach them for some grievances, "All right, give me application," and, after six months, "No." So we are maintaining for this purpose? Yes. "I say no." That's all. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...ing of freedom, but we have no freedom even to stay in this body.

Indian man (6): Yes. That is not our plan.

Indian man (5): Somebody else is controlling that.

Prabhupada: Yes. We learn that na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. "This is my position. I am eternal. So why I am obliged to accept body which is hanyamana?" These questions do not bother them. And where is my freedom? "I am eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. I do not die after the destruction of my body. Then why I am put into this body which will be destroyed, which will become old, useless? And where is my freedom?" These things do not bother them, and they are reader of Bhagavad-gita.

Indian man (6): Somebody told that they are made to come here...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man (6): Is it the sin of some of the...?

Prabhupada: No, that we shall consider. First of all we have to see that I learn that my position is na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So why I am put into this body which is hanyamana? (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Yes. (Hindi) They want to remain in darkness, and any leader who will keep him in the darkness in flowery language, he will be welcomed: "Oh, he is very good leader." "And this man is very conservative: 'Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.' " So here is freedom. "Whatever you like, you do" -- here is freedom. If this rascal does not do what you do and you go to hell, that is their business. Krsna therefore says, "You rascal, where is your freedom?" Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. First of all you see. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. So where is your freedom? First of all get out of these things; then question of freedom. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam. This is your knowledge, that "Where is my freedom? If I am under the rules and regulation of janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi, then where is my freedom?" (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Simply rubber-stamped freedom will help me? Suppose I was dependent on British rule, and now I have become free. So will this help me to get freedom from janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi? Then where is my freedom? What are major questions, they have set aside. "Don't discuss all these things, and bother your head with trifle things." And our philosophy is that "Don't bother with these trifle things. Just seriously think of the major problems." This is our philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] Tesam aham samuddharta mrtyu-samsara-sagarat [Bg. 12.7]. Samuddaharta, just to deliver them from this ocean of mrtyu-samsara. That is not care. Real freedom is given by him -- that you don't care. [break] ...will be given by Krsna. This is no freedom. Here the so-called freedom-giver, he has no freedom. And what he will give, freedom? Gandhiji preached so much about nonviolence, and nonviolence said, "All right, you have no freedom from nonviolence. You die." (Hindi) [break] ...is there, there is no question of freedom. (end)